The White Paper and the recent Local Government Bill could mean big changes for the jobs of senior council managers. The MJ and the Public Sector People Managers' Association (PPMA) invited local government's leading executive recruitment firms to a debate lunch at The MJ's offices in London to discuss future trends. Michael Burton, The MJ's editor, chaired the discussion. Deputy editor Heather Jameson reports on the key points To sit with one of local government's top head-hunters is daunting enough, but to sit around a table of several is positively intimidating. However, it does offer a unique opportunity to find out what they really think about the sector – and the Local Government Bill. The people who recently assembled at The MJ's London offices have, between them, hired most of the top chief executives and directors in local government – together with a large chunk of senior civil servants. They place the people who run the country – or at least, the public sector part of the county. So, what do they think about the Government's vision for councils? Is it a brave blueprint for the future, or a bit of a damp squib? Say one attendee: ‘The White Paper does set out an ambitious agenda for efficiencies, but in terms of shared services, local government is already much further ahead.' But as one guest points out: ‘The White Paper is not revolutionary. It is evolutionary. There are no big issues coming out of it. ‘Maybe the gaps will be filled more when Michael [Lyons'] report comes out later in the year. But the White Paper is about more of the same – more efficiency, more customer focus, more citizen facing. ‘The big issue is around delivery and commissioning. The White Paper should be pushing the agenda a bit faster.' While efficiencies and the push for unitary government could mean ‘a lot of available staff coming out in the market', there are concerns about whether the available staff have the right skills. ‘The big question is whether we have the competencies surrounding place shaping – do we really understand what that means?' One of our debaters questions whether the White Paper is really an issue at all – after all, it is not something people are getting excited about, and there is nothing new. ‘In the last local government review, we all saw the benefits of working together', but it still didn't happen. There are other issues around HR and recruitment which are more pressing, such as pensions, single status and equal pay, and an ageing workforce. Pay is another major factor. The recent TV programme following Gerry Robinson in an NHS trust has shown how difficult it can be to manage in the public sector. ‘When Mr Robinson was on Newsnight, he told interviewer Jeremy Paxman that managers in the private sector were paid three times as much as in the public sector, but the organisations they ran were not as complex. Paxman said, "Fair point". I think that's the first time I've heard him say that.' With so much going on in local government at present, it is difficult for staff to fix on priorities. ‘There is a danger that people will look up instead of down to communities that they should be. ‘We heard the Government was going to be radical. The areas it has tried to be radical in, it has missed the mark', and as for the rest of the legislation: ‘Local government had already progressed. All things were on the agenda before.' We continue to come back to the missing piece of the puzzle – finance and the Lyons review – when someone claims the Comprehensive Spending Review, due this summer, will have the biggest impact. Where it will have a huge impact is councils going for unitary status. Although ministers claim they have limited the damage it will cause by keeping it to a short timetable, it has led to ‘people keeping their eye on the wrong ball'. And when we meet, it us accepted that none of the authorities going for unitary status are going to be working on anything else. ‘It is detracting from the partnership focus of the White Paper.' It is also distracting from the real purpose of local authorities – to serve their communities. It is agreed that most of the barriers to restructuring – both to unitary status and enhanced two-tier working – are often emotional. ‘We get some political resistance, but most of the obstacles are emotional.' ‘People will protect their jobs.' It doesn't need to be like that. As one debater suggests: ‘Why do we have to have five different chief executives running authorities. Why not just one running different organisations, providing different services?' Looking at restructuring from a recruitment perspective gives a different point of view. ‘It is a great opportunity for local government to get rid of the dead wood', and it will be ‘good for recruitment talent all round'. ‘It will do more for interim management jobs than for recruitment,' but ‘we have to be careful that the dead wood doesn't move into interim management or consultancy'. Perhaps there is something inherently wrong in the way local government deals with its dead wood. ‘The structure doesn't reward people for changing – it benefits them if they stick around a long time.' ‘There are too many obstacles to heads of service. Often they are waiting for someone to die.' But local government itself is a barrier to getting good people to come on board. There are talented people in the public and private sectors, but often authorities look to hire managers with 30 years' experience in a council. ‘Local government often says it wants someone from outside the sector but, as we get closer to appointment, they get more and more conservative.' It is a ‘steep learning curve' for outsiders and those moving from the private sector. It is a political environment and there is a whole new language to master, with different nuances. The demands of CPA and inspection, and the new agenda, mean there is little time to coach someone through those new skills. ‘It is easy to transfer to central government from local government, but those who do move often hate it. They say it is not connected to communities. It is all too policy led.' And there is a fear of being stabbed in the back by other civil servants. For those who move from central to local government there is a lot of suspicion. What we should be encouraging people to do is to ‘define themselves as public servants, not as local government'. ‘As [head of the Civil Service] Gus O'Donnell says – to move up, you've got to move out for a bit. ‘I'd like to see that in local government.' But with the growing demands on local government managers, it is tough to find good people to fill the jobs. ‘The pool is huge,' as long as you are not insisting on people with 30 years' experience in local government. Many sectors – for example, customer services – have transferable skills. And local government is doing a lot of work ‘breeding and developing fish in its own pools'. But the truth is, attracting young managers is tough because ‘it's not sexy'. Ultimately, local government must start to think of itself as ‘public sector', not just local government, so it can recruit from a wider pool, and grab the agenda of the White Paper, and start to work across the whole of the public sector in its area.